Hi in Magnify series, we ask the experts the questions you want to hear answers to in the field of growth. Today's guest is Engin Yurdakul, the founder of jeneration, verennew.tv has been serving with his own agency in influencer marketing for more than 10 years after 15 years of corporate life. We usually ask questions that we are curious about in the field of growth, but today I am extra excited. Because influencer marketing is really so much that there are a lot of problems that I want to hear from my experts. I'm starting quickly. Please note that a lot of brands are doing influencer marketing that they have already discovered. Everyone does it in their own measure, and the biggest problem that brands that take this measure too far are currently squeezing into a narrow influencer palm, no matter how wide it is. As a result, the number of influencers is much more limited than the product to be sold or the turnover to be made. You can spend as much budget as you want on Google, but influencer is a medium that is always trying to grow more. At this point, what would you recommend to brands that want to scale influencer marketing without reducing efficiency? Here, in fact, it is not without reducing the efficiency, on the contrary, I think it should not depend on the influencer to be efficient. Because both influser and platforms are changing very fast. Influencers are changing a lot. A job can be done with an influencer who looks good today, but after these 2 months, you may not want the influencer to be with your brand due to a wrong move. Or a new influencer comes along. He would be a better influencer than you might think at first. Therefore, we need to be flexible here. As you said, there are a lot of platforms in channel selection, so the tiktok side can be separate. Youtube comes with separate youtube shorts. We already know the Instagram side, here is the twitch side, there is Twitter. There are actually different channels. Therefore, influencers are also different, and as a result, there are influencer management agencies and influencers who work differently or without an agency. Therefore, brands need to be flexible here. In fact, as lithv, the deficit that I envisaged in the first establishment was actually at this point because in general, all structures are gathered around what we call create, that is, those who make content. Therefore, no one really thought about the brand side, and brands are not actually working with a single management company, but with 34 management companies or agencies. They are working in emergencies. Therefore, it is not like a pool to keep it wide on the influencer side. In fact, they need to establish the infrastructure to work with everyone and they are working with such an agency like us, but they need to be as flexible as possible, not like a direct thrower of the list they receive from a management agency, or when there is a portfolio, they need to find an answer to the question of what you need rather than a portfolio. You know, I guess more brands will follow. That's the right thing to do, so he actually understands it. Then, if there is no influencer selection, how can I listen and understand the brand and understand the brand and be on this side, rather than giving a list and choosing an influencer for the brand? In fact, the best thing to say about the options here is this. Because it's not like a brand or an advertisement here. Just like you mean in the cinema. What is the story of your brand, there is a logic that celebrities are actually meant and a story is being written. True, there is a slight difference there, maybe a little more on the advertising side. Now, I look at a lot of people in casting, and see if this reflects our brand, and it could be from their youth. Could this be the face of our brand with everything from her smile and her stance? There may be such a debate there. Because your freedom of choice is very much on the casting side, but not so here. Here, you know, what I always say to brands is that they have to stretch the brand to whom is closest to you from the materials that are available here and there, they can say that you have the freedom to choose on that side, this profile of mine does not describe me, it looks at someone else, but it is not like that here. Here, the number we call influencers is clear. Especially if we say macro or reason, do it even less or don't do it, or he may not like it very much. But at the end of the day, brands need to learn to stretch if the brand is not too opposite. Because this guy is going to bring you more sales or more views. Therefore, they need to be a little more flexible in their brands in terms of working with this. So, what is the most common trap or wrong strategy that brands fall into here? In general, they are limited in doing this, they work with the influser, but as you asked, there are brands that see this as a problem, or always with the same people without knowing that this is a big problem. There may be a working situation, and on the second point, of course, when I look at it from the perspective of the brand, many agencies say that we are doing influencer marketing. Because that's the subject of it, so it's here now. Because social media has a lot of influence, I don't mean this in the sense of denigrating, but social media agencies are already doing influencer business. PR agencies are creative agencies, media buying agencies are. Therefore, I would suggest that they pay attention to the fact that it is an agency that is really experienced in the field of population. In fact, China has made very serious developments in end-user data privacy in recent years, especially from the European Union and the United States, and after these results, it is very distractive in measurement methods. There have been changes especially for eflat marketing and it puts marketing in a very difficult situation. On the influencer marketing side, it's relatively not that impressed, but at this point, you. Is this really how it is reflected in the sectors right now? How can brands overcome this? I think measurement is very important outside of appetit. Brentink is very important in the part we call it. Because there is also a budget allocated there, and it is also important whether it brings an interaction or whether it brings views. That may not be turning into sales. It doesn't matter if he achieves his ultimate goal. There is also the part of what the campaign was made for and measuring the result of it and actually whether that influencer is right. You know, directly, maybe before the appetit. It has to be said, there are analysis rounds there as well. There are 2 tools that we are working on. I think the important thing here is that the agencies' only job is measurement, reporting, rather than their own tools. Because there are tools that develop that side because they make money from there, and now they create some predictions with artificial intelligence. So I think it's much better to work with them. On the Afili side, of course, it is always on the side of the brand and on the web side, there are some applications or actually that they already use. There are some applications that are already in the price, such as Google analytics, which are already in it. Therefore, it is very important to have a very transparent exposure to influencers or agencies on the efiled side in order for the business to grow transparently by going back to the sales figures. In fact, maybe sharing them in real time, yes it can be Cancellation and Refund or something. There is a monthly evaluation, but you can still do it transparently, you know? When it doesn't happen and I earn 2 TL at the end of the day, I think of it as an influencer because I should be 100% sure. In fact, the transparency of the brands and the e-commerce side are already doing this. I think it would be enough for them to actually open it. I would like to ask this, on the influencer campaigns side, the focus is always on interaction and access. Mainly, but what metric do you think is critical for connecting business results, what is the main metric that you highlight? I think that's why we all want access and interaction, in fact, at the end of the day, when we think of it as a hun, sales is the end of this business, and inevitably, most brands want immediate sales. But this is a very difficult question for the following, that is, who brings sales, which influencer brings us the best sales? The question is very difficult and even a question that has no answer. Because if fifty percent of it is on the influencer side and it will come out, if it is connected to the inside, the other fifty percent is the brand and the product just like that. If that product is not selling anyway, let's see influencer marketing very well. Let's see if there is an approach like this product because that product is not sold, there is a problem with the consumer and the product or the brand. Just because the influencer said to buy it, yes, normally, of course, there may be a return to a purchase, but in case of not, it is not very correct to say that the influencer is wrong. Because normally that product is not already selling. You know, how can the influencer sell, or if the influencer sells at that time, I say, then what is the need for all sales teams or marketing? If there is a world where everything is taken when the influencer comes out and says buy, then there is something like what everyone is dealing with. Selling is hard, actually. Here, the following conclusion emerges, in recent years, the products released by influencers beyond the influencer cooperation of brands and the reason why brands keep them as intense is that they actually see the market better and produce products according to them, in fact, they can act more agile than brands here. So that's why access is important there. Again, if we think of it like a funnel, the first is access, the second is awareness, and the third is actually action. Let's say that sales are usually requested. You can download this app. You can be a member on your Instagram account and so on, but it's normal. The action at the end is usually sales, you know, everyone's goal is to start this learning process as soon as possible and go from access to it, so instead of waiting for sales, we come to this point in access, a little more flexible than a marketing stance such as advertising, which we call organic content or closer in daily life. Yes, of course, the things that the brand wants should be said in the briefing. Because it's an advertising business, after all, and a budget is allocated and the brand pays for it. But he should be able to say it in the way that the influencer freely chooses. We say write 56 articles for my favorite model brand. Leave 2 or three of them free for the influencer to say. It's not like he says these 2 because then he makes a fiction to say it, but if the other chooses himself, I talk about this and that in a fiction like this, I talk about this, there are a lot of things that the brand wants to say. The fact that he says two out of 5 is already a very organic content. Then there is more interaction again. As you said, when there is interaction, there is awareness. He spends more time in that video, listens more carefully, and what happens when he's impressed? After raising awareness, the affected person either goes to the brand and buys it or does not. We're at least getting more people down the ground. Still, the customer is actually showing the movement that if he is not being monitored, the sale will not happen anyway. In recent years, marketplaces and some brands have created their own influencer networks, such as the reflection of the record setup in Asian digital marketing to influencer marketing. They have established their serious fields. Although this provides many advantages for themselves, perhaps it provides an advantage in terms of cost operational power, there are also ideas that there is a possibility of narrowing the influencer marketing area or the sector a little more. What's your take on this? Here, brands collaborate separately with influencers, that is, let's say they have a team outside of their own team. Since he will work outside of his team later, I don't think there will be an end or termination in his influencer. Sometimes we talk to me as well. What about this side? It has become very clear that it is an advertisement, or they ask me if this business has come to an end or not. If television advertising is still the most expensive medium years later, if a medium that we always talk about that no one watches is still the most expensive, there is no such thing as ending on this side. Again, if there is access, it is exactly here. Because the consumer actually decides. In other words, if the consumer does not decrease, it is not possible for influencer marketing or influencers to end. Yes, the medium can change, here is instagram from facebook. While Instagram, there may be tiktok, there was vine for a while, but here are the vine phenomena that have shifted to tiktok, somehow there is Snapchat. For example, Snapchat is very good in the Middle East, or it can change according to the markets, or it can change according to the people who set it up. I don't think it's going to end. Brands can build their own team. Here, the advantage in terms of cost is debatable or may not be. On the one hand, when the brand goes directly, it seems to be an advantage because there is no agency in between, but the other issue is that the brand wants me anyway. It can be given at a price. There, too, if the agency actually has cooperation or bargaining power, there is actually something like getting a cheaper price from the agency, including its own service fee, and of course, as you said, the operational side should be managing it from the brand itself. It depends on how many different influencers you want to work with. I can do something with 23 people, but I'm going to build a team. You know, when you want to have a 20-person, 30-person influser team, it's a really big operation. The fact that the ingredients are gone and the content is exactly the end for me. It brought me to my question. What you said is actually a chance for independent influencers or micro-influencers. Because when brands and marketplaces manage this themselves, I think they are trying to reach something that will spread to the base after a while, right? That's right, yes, the big names eventually got to the point where it was like this old brand collaboration. There are a lot of articles about this and there is also the truth side. Although the faces we now call celebrities are influencers, he is now really in the status of a celebrity and he actually plays a sports celebrity or fashion celebrity in an advertisement. It comes down to the same point. Both have their advantages, they have disadvantages. As with most things, there is no single truth. There are also advantages to doing a project with Celebrity. It can go to a very different point in terms of access in terms of awareness, but in small names, there can be a more sincere communication with those who have a good command of that subject or with their followers. Therefore, he is not advertising much, he is making products that he likes because he does not take that risk. Since they have a small number of followers, they both have an advantage, I think we go in the way that both can do it in the projects we always carry out with brands. In the same way, there are advantages in efiliation and fix, you know, with a budget. I think that's the tricky part of this brand, it's maybe they have to be very flexible around here and try all of them and figure out which ones are right for them. In fact, there probably won't be a single truth. When there is a sales campaign, it should be flexible in between, such as being able to use something and go to the Brent side, for example, or if there is a launch, it can go to the other. I think the agency is actually important for this, I'm moving into a more difficult area. In fact, influencer collaborations and b two be space. Brands that work for a while because it is a tool that is mostly used to spread in but c and meskit and seems to be more functional there, influencer marketing is always true, but they see it as useless for us, but it is a very powerful marketing tool. On the one hand, do you think there is an area where marketers can play influencer marketing? It's very difficult because the most critical issue here is actually targeting, how far can we go in targeting? Now, with the natural infrastructure of Facebook, Instagram's targeting is much higher. Therefore, in such cases, I recommend that you go with a standard advertisement. If you want to reach a specific audience, the most detailed thing we know here is actually targeting. For example, if there is a café in eskisehir, if he wants to attract someone here, and there is an influsur in eskisehir and he goes to the café. I say this on a micro scale because his followers are also an influencer from Eskişehir. Based on the assumption that since he is an influencer from Eskişehir, his followers will also be in Eskişehir, which is a correct acceptance. Therefore, it may be something like announcing it to Eskişehir, but others will be watching it in Istanbul or in another city. So something specific is very difficult. This is also the case with the beauty bee side. It is not possible to target people such as the purchase of this company or the people who are engaged in this. But that doesn't mean that person doesn't exist on social media. Yes. But I mean, there's not a million people, you're making an ad that you can reach, but 23 people out of it may be the buyer in the company you really want, but there's nothing specific about it other than hoping they'll see it. Still, it's of course much stronger on the be to c side. Because at a point where you want to sell goods to everyone, no matter how many people see it, if you have a product or a saying that is useful to me, it is always more advantageous in terms of cost. Well, on the other side of this scale, there may be a micro-influencer. Is it an opportunity for people to appeal to Up? Because on the other hand, there are a lot of paint brands that want to sell paint, and they are trying to reach the masters. Or there are brands that try to reach hairdressers that are valid for every sector. Therefore, on the other hand, it does not need to be in the consistency of macro or celebrity with the influencer here. Do you think there is an opportunity for micro-influencers? So, the support of the brand is actually a structure as you asked in the question, it is more accurate here. If there is no market for that much. Because at the end of the day, the influencer goes to a point like this, even if an influencer opens a channel about paint, if the number of followers remains very low, the brand will not be able to get cooperation, and therefore this is an income or a business, so if this does not grow, it has always remained in the same number of followers and will probably not continue if it does not get business from brands. If he does not do it with a lot of love and without any expectation of income, so it may actually be the brand that will finance it. Our brand can take such people into its own structure and support them, and in fact, it can constantly produce content that is organized in accordance with these channels, let's say close, in fact, I think it is a very niche issue that we are talking about. Because otherwise, the influencer cannot continue on his own. When I came to my last question, it is actually a concept that we ask all our guests, which is artificial intelligence. We see this a lot in influencer marketing, and tiktok has also come to the fore. In fact, it is formed with the eye. Synthetic content is currently on the market in numbers that have exceeded real content through synthetic creatives or synthetic influencers. First, I'm curious to hear your opinion on this, but I'm going to link it here. Where will this trend go in 35 years, can it reach a point where it will harm people, that is, influencer marketing itself? Do you think the issue of virtual influencers has really come to the fore recently. His followers have also increased a lot. I think it's because it's new, it's such a sensation, but I'm not saying that it won't work. Therefore, I think it will settle down, but I think it will not be a concern as to whether an influencer is an artificial influencer or a real influencer, let's call them consumers or us or followers. At the moment, since this has just come out and there has been no such thing so far, maybe there is such a concern, and there is actually that in this question. Will he replace him or can he finish that side? I think that's going to continue in a different way. Because this new generation of people will be even closer to it. Because of this, maybe this is a new issue for us. But he will already know by himself. Therefore, I do not think that there will be such a concern. Or I don't follow it because it's artificial. And I don't think it will. At the moment, at least there is a creative team behind what we call artificial influencers or artificial intelligence, but this is still going on in the human thing. One day, I really don't know where the face and profile will go at a point where artificial intelligence will show up in the work that artificial intelligence does, and it becomes very difficult to predict a little bit of a step ahead with all our guests. Let's close with the question then. Using real influencers is a structure that has been used for years, and it works. On the one hand, it seems to be beneficial to support it with synthetic creatives and influencers. Here, do you think a hybrid construction should be considered. Should brands already consider this? I think it's there, in fact, as we talked about later, brands can maybe make their own influencers. So it's made to go with an artificial influser, because it's the same as a normal influser. Yes, it can be that too. Exactly. When he does this himself, because he has a strong discourse in artificial influencers, I actually said it at the beginning. When an influencer does something wrong, it affects the brand one-on-one. We have also heard many examples of these normal brand faces. Brands are ending their collaborations. And so on, they always say that he should come to that side, you know, he will not do anything wrong, he will not be hungry at work, he will not be thirsty. Therefore, you know, you can go anywhere, there is no need to pay money, you change the background, it is like traveling the world. So it could be something in the form of fiction, yes, but it could also be very artificial. You know, it's actually like advertising and influencer marketing. At that time, everything was also very good in advertising. The shots are great, the sound of music in the background, the light is great, but influencer marketing has actually increased more than it is natural. In other words, the user knows that she will not wear makeup when she gets out of bed. He wants to see his wife, her husband. For example, he wants to see family life, that naturalness is actually the starting point in influencer marketing because of the advantage provided by these channels. When we say it, you know, even if it is too good because it is artificial in name, it is actually like an advertisement. This time, too, it will have no credibility. So maybe there is one. It may be, but if we think about both the artificial side, I think brands can create their own artificial influs, but we can understand if there are no followers anyway. The fact that the process can be a bit like advertising will show as the consumer is not already ready for this side or still does not accept it. Thank you very much for participating and sharing your ideas, today we talked about the ways and future of influencer marketing at engin yurdakul. 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